Intelligent Reasoning

Promoting, advancing and defending Intelligent Design via data, logic and Intelligent Reasoning and exposing the alleged theory of evolution as the nonsense it is. I also educate evotards about ID and the alleged theory of evolution one tard at a time and sometimes in groups

Thursday, May 14, 2015

Elizabeth Liddle's Mistake

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Elizabeth Liddle needs to just shut up or she risks proving to everyone that she is a old fat moron. I have corrected her on her appallingly bad post about Meyer's "Darwin's Doubt" but she is dredging up her diatribe to try to show that Meyer was stupid. Lizzie proves she is clueless in attack on Meyer. She is so stupid that she doesn't even read Meyer's references that support his claims. She doesn't read Darwin who Meyer quotes. Pathetic.

Lizzie spews:
All branching events, in Darwin’s proposal, whether the resulting lineages end up as different phyla or merely different species, start in the same way, with two populations where there once was one, and a short morphological distance between them.  It is perfectly true that the longer both lineages persist for, the greater the morphological distance will become.  But that isn’t because they started different, or because the phyla come later.  It’s because what we call phyla are groups of organisms with an early common ancestor,  whose later descendents have evolved to form a group that has a large morphological distance from contemporary populations who descended from adifferent early common ancestor.
No, dumbass, phyla require a whole new set of definitions. Phyla do come later, they have to. Read Darwin and buy a vowel.

In "One the Origins of Species..." Darwin says what Meyer claims he said- that you start with a species and then from there you can get genera and from that you get families and so on. Meyer also quotes Roger Lewin from a peer-reviewed article to support his claim. And paleontologists Douglas Erwin, James Valentine and Jack Sepkoski are also quoted in support of that premise.

Phyla come later, Lizzie. Phyla come after there is a great deal of diversity between populations. It starts off slow and accumulates- that is the whole premise of evolutionism.

Lizzie attacks one of Meyer's drawings and calls it "appalling". Yet it is only "appalling" to the ignorant as it portrays exactly what Darwin states in "On The Origins of Species...", chapter 4. Read it and buy a vowel, Lizzie. Your ignorance is really tiring.

To read why Meyer is right and Liddle is wrong, just read Cambrian Explosion

ETA:
"The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth)."
- Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates, 1986; p.12

46 Comments:

  • At 12:08 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Is this how science is done Joe?

    "a old fat moron"

    Aside from the abuse shouldn't it be AN old fat moron?

    "She doesn't read Darwin who Meyer quotes. Pathetic."

    I think you'll find she understands Darwin's work pretty well. Her description of how we come to recognise different phyla is very good and concise.

    You are looking at how separate phyla are recognised in hindsight and Dr Liddle is talking about how they develop. Just like with any bifurcation, things that end up in different clads have a common ancestor and from which came two descendants which lead to the separate branchings. At that moment, the two branches are as similar as two siblings.

    "Phyla come later, Lizzie. Phyla come after there is a great deal of diversity between populations. It starts off slow and accumulates- that is the whole premise of evolutionism."

    She is not disagreeing with that. I think you're just determined to attack people.

     
  • At 12:33 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Forgot to tick the box to get emails for responses. Duh.

     
  • At 1:45 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Jerad, This is how we refute Lizzie's nonsense.

    I think you'll find she understands Darwin's work pretty well.

    I have found the opposite. She doesn't understand natural selection and she thinks that elimination and selection are the same process cuz they both entail elimination and survival.

    Her description of how we come to recognise different phyla is very good and concise.

    Her critique of meyer totally misses the mark. Meyer sites the experts to support his claims- IOW he is going but what they say and Lizzie jumps on him!

    I think you're just determined to attack people.

    LoL! Lizzie is pointing out a "mistake" that doesn't exist. SHE is the one determined to attack people, dipshit.

    She has a post titled "Meyer's Mistake" when there isn't any mistakes and she is just an old, confused and sour Brit.

     
  • At 8:07 PM, Blogger Rich Hughes said…

    Chubby fridge repairman calls Neuroscientist "old fat moron".

    Untelligent Reasoning!

     
  • At 5:00 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    LoL! Lizzie is pointing out a "mistake" that doesn't exist. SHE is the one determined to attack people, dipshit.

    She has a post titled "Meyer's Mistake" when there isn't any mistakes and she is just an old, confused and sour Brit.


    Point out a specific mistake she made in the post "Meyer's Mistake" and we'll see.

     
  • At 6:26 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Jerad, The OP points out the mistakes, dumbass.

     
  • At 6:27 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Richie the clueless cupcake lives to spew again.

    When it comes to biology and evolution, Lizzie is a moron.

     
  • At 3:48 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Jerad, The OP points out the mistakes, dumbass.

    But I have suggested that you are just judging her comments from an incorrect point of view, i.e. she is considering a developmental view of phyla whereas you are looking at a hind-sight definitional point of view.

    So, I am asking you, what in Dr Liddle's post is incorrect?

     
  • At 8:35 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Jerad, The OP points out her mistakes. Your suggestion is asinine. Her attack on Meyer is a mistake.

     
  • At 6:59 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    And another evolutionary biologist supports Meyer:

    "The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth)."
    - Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates, 1986; p.12

     
  • At 4:20 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    That quote does sound like a pretty good summary of evolutionary theory. In case you still don't think one exists.

     
  • At 12:26 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It doesn't sound like a theory at all. It sounds like a story. However it does support what Meyer said.

     
  • At 3:08 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    It doesn't sound like a theory at all. It sounds like a story. However it does support what Meyer said.

    Genesis is a story, an attempt at explaining the origination of life on earth. Evolutionary theory is a far cry from that.

     
  • At 11:09 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Evolutionary theory is a far cry from that.

    There isn't any evolutionary theory and the Bible has more support than evolutionism.

     
  • At 1:12 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    There isn't any evolutionary theory and the Bible has more support than evolutionism.

    If this is all just a matter of faith why not say so?

     
  • At 6:09 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Your position is all just a matter of faith.

     
  • At 4:46 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Your position is all just a matter of faith.

    This from the man who takes 'flying dragons' seriously.

     
  • At 5:27 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    I never said I took it seriously, moron. It is the only reported method used. Also it is said only two people did it.

     
  • At 2:05 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    I never said I took it seriously, moron. It is the only reported method used. Also it is said only two people did it.

    You did say the flying dragons were most likely some kind of aircraft. Which is slightly less ludicrous than flying dragons. You are giving the 'report' some credence when it's pretty clearly just a fable.

     
  • At 6:14 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Your entire position is a fable, Jerad. And guess what? No one can say how it was built without using aircraft. No one has a clue.

    Strange, eh?

     
  • At 3:57 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Your entire position is a fable, Jerad. And guess what? No one can say how it was built without using aircraft. No one has a clue.

    Strange, eh?


    It's much less impressive than Machu Pichu. And not knowing does not give you dragons or alien astronauts.

     
  • At 4:25 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It's much less impressive than Machu Pichu.

    That's your opinion.

    And not knowing does not give you dragons or alien astronauts.

    Every reference of it gives you flying dragons and two people building it.

     
  • At 3:42 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Every reference of it gives you flying dragons and two people building it.

    Do you believe some guy built a big boat and put two of all the animals on it as well? Did some guy part the Red Sea so the Israelites could escape? Did some lady living in a pond give King Arthur a sword? Did a bunch of Greek guys really hide in a big wooden horse in order to invade the city of Troy?

    Is there any real physical evidence for any of those things?

     
  • At 9:34 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    EVERY REFERENCE FOR NAN MADOL GIVES FLYING DRAGONS AND TWO BROTHERS BUILDING IT. EVERY REFERENCE.

    Is there any real physical evidence for any of those things?

    There isn't any physical evidence that humans built Nan Madol.

     
  • At 12:03 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    EVERY REFERENCE FOR NAN MADOL GIVES FLYING DRAGONS AND TWO BROTHERS BUILDING IT. EVERY REFERENCE.

    So? You believe it just because some folk legends say so? Is that how science is done?

    There isn't any physical evidence that humans built Nan Madol.

    Are you sure? Have you been there? Have you looked at the images? The scale of the structures seems awfully human-based to me. And there is, of course, zero physical evidence of any other beings being around at the time.

    But you do seem to like to believe in fairy tales.

     
  • At 6:22 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Jerad, you are a dick. I never said I believed it. It is all we have, asshole.

    And yes I am sure there isn't any evidence that humans built it. How could we even test such a premise? Do tell...

     
  • At 4:53 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Jerad, you are a dick. I never said I believed it. It is all we have, asshole.

    It's all we have if you don't think too much.

    And yes I am sure there isn't any evidence that humans built it. How could we even test such a premise? Do tell...

    Thanks for confirming that your really do not understand how archaeology works.

     
  • At 5:01 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It's all we have if you don't think too much.

    We await your report on it. I bet you don't come up with anything.

    Thanks for confirming that your really do not understand how archaeology works.

    Thanks for confirming that you are an ignorant coward.

     
  • At 5:17 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    We await your report on it. I bet you don't come up with anything.

    I'm in no position to research or write a report on a polynesian culture. Sorry.

    Thanks for confirming that you are an ignorant coward.

    Only someone who really doesn't understand how archaeology works would have asked the question you asked.

     
  • At 6:15 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Only someone who really doesn't understand how archaeology works would have asked the question you asked.

    That is your uneducated opinion. It's very telling tat all you can do is say that and not support it.

    Someone who understands how science works would understand why such a question is asked.

     
  • At 1:28 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    That is your uneducated opinion. It's very telling tat all you can do is say that and not support it.

    I'm tired of trying to get you to admit you don't understand some things. You've shown your ignorance for all to see.

    Someone who understands how science works would understand why such a question is asked.

    Like I said, you've shown your ignorance.

     
  • At 8:31 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Jerad, Thank you for proving that you are just an ignorant piece-of-shit loser.

    I know more about science, archaeology and forensics than you will ever know.

     
  • At 3:25 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Jerad, Thank you for proving that you are just an ignorant piece-of-shit loser.

    At least I don't betray my ignorance by asking stupid questions.

    I know more about science, archaeology and forensics than you will ever know.

    Then why did you ask such a stupid question? Clearly you don't understand it at all.

     
  • At 4:02 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It wasn't a stupid question, Jerad.

    Saying "humans didit" just cuz humans may have been around, isn't science, Jerad.

     
  • At 1:25 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    It wasn't a stupid question, Jerad.

    It was coming from someone who claims to know a lot about archaeology.

    Saying "humans didit" just cuz humans may have been around, isn't science, Jerad.

    True and that's not what I would or did say either. You just keep digging the hole you're in deeper and deeper.

     
  • At 9:58 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It was coming from someone who claims to know a lot about archaeology.

    Nope. Only someone ignorant of archaeology would say it is/ was a stupid question.

    Saying "humans didit" just cuz humans may have been around, isn't science, Jerad.

    True and that's not what I would or did say either.

    That is what you are saying by not answering the question, dumbass. You must be the most ignorant bluffing moron in the world, Jerad.

     
  • At 5:25 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Nope. Only someone ignorant of archaeology would say it is/ was a stupid question.

    Every dig I've been on people have explained to me (when I asked) how to determine if some object was 'man made'. Or man crafted. And it was never anything like the design detection stuff you promulgate. How many digs have you been on Joe? Really. Why would you say you had no idea of how to show something was man made?

    That is what you are saying by not answering the question, dumbass. You must be the most ignorant bluffing moron in the world, Jerad.

    I'm not answering the question because it's a typical tactic of yours to make me do the work and tell you what the argument is. And then you think you can jump in with some quote you find which you think contradicts me.

    This time, you have to do the work. No abuse. No name calling. The way you asked the question you asked showed that you are pretty ignorant of archaeological theory, methods and practice. If you can't understand why that is then you have proved my point.

     
  • At 5:50 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Every dig I've been on people have explained to me (when I asked) how to determine if some object was 'man made'. Or man crafted. And it was never anything like the design detection stuff you promulgate. How many digs have you been on Joe? Really. Why would you say you had no idea of how to show something was man made?

    You are a fucking imbecile. I know how to tell if something is an artifact or not. What we cannot do is always say "humans did it" when we cannot test the claim if the people of that time had the capability.

    We cannot test the claim that humans back then built Nan Madol. That is the answer to my question. But then again you don't seem to know what the hell you are talking about.

     
  • At 2:54 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    You are a fucking imbecile. I know how to tell if something is an artifact or not. What we cannot do is always say "humans did it" when we cannot test the claim if the people of that time had the capability.

    If it's an artefact then it's man-made yes? Then apply the same criteria to Nan Madol.

    We cannot test the claim that humans back then built Nan Madol. That is the answer to my question. But then again you don't seem to know what the hell you are talking about.

    Yes we can. Start with the standard criteria, look for evidence of tools and quarrying, look for precursor structures, look for evidence of any other being around at the time, etc.

    It's not tricky, stop making it sound like some huge mystery.

     
  • At 7:24 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Not all artifacts are man made, Jerad. And we cannot test the claim that humans built Nan Madol. No tools have been found. No transport devices have been found.

    It is tricky and it is a big mystery.

     
  • At 9:19 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Not all artifacts are man made, Jerad.

    You show your ignorance over and over again. In archaeology 'artifact' means something man made. Look it up!! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

    You really don't know shit about archaeology. But you'll say you do anyway because you haven't got the balls to admit you're wrong.

    And we cannot test the claim that humans built Nan Madol. No tools have been found. No transport devices have been found.

    It is tricky and it is a big mystery.


    You can look for toolmarks on the stones (which looked like they were shaped to me). You can look for broken stones that were not used. You can look for structures that didn't work and were abandoned. You can test possible transportation methods that would have been available to the locals at the time.

    AND you can easily see there there is zero, no, nada evidence of anything other than what was available to humans living at the time.

     
  • At 9:56 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    In archaeology 'artifact' means something man made.

    You are such a narrow-minded fool- Artifact: An artifact may be defined as an object that has been intentionally made or produced for a certain purpose.


    You can look for toolmarks on the stones (which looked like they were shaped to me)

    So only humans use tools- really?

    You can test possible transportation methods that would have been available to the locals at the time.

    You have to show there were locals at the time. You have to find the tools for cutting and shaping.

    Nan Madol has been studied, Jerad. The legends persist because there isn't anything that contradicts them.

     
  • At 1:24 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    You are such a narrow-minded fool- Artifact: An artifact may be defined as an object that has been intentionally made or produced for a certain purpose.

    Nice quote-mine from The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. In fact, the whole paragraph reads:

    "An artifact may be defined as an object that has been intentionally made or produced for a certain purpose. Often the word ‘artifact’ is used in a more restricted sense to refer to simple, hand-made objects which represent a particular culture. According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary, an artifact is “a usually simple object (as a tool or an ornament) showing human workmanship and modification as distinguished from a natural object.” The Oxford English Dictionary defines an artifact (artefact) as “anything made by human art and workmanship; an artificial product.” This sense of the word can be seen from the word itself: it is derived from the Latin words arte, ablative of ars (art), and factum, the past participle of facere (to make). In experimental science, the expression ‘artifact’ is sometimes used to refer to experimental results which are not manifestations of the natural phenomena under investigation, but are due to the particular experimental arrangement, and hence indirectly to human agency."

    And from The Free Dictionary (first two definitions):

    "1. An object produced or shaped by human craft, especially a tool, weapon, or ornament of archaeological or historical interest.
    2. Something viewed as a product of human conception or agency rather than an inherent element:"

    And further (again first two definitions):

    "1. any object made by human beings, esp. with a view to subsequent use.
    2. a handmade object, as a tool, or the remains of one, as a shard of pottery, belonging to an earlier time or cultural stage, esp. such an object found at an archaeological excavation."

    Primarily, and especially in archaeological usage, artifact refers to something man-made.

    So only humans use tools- really?

    No, so do chimps. But so far we have never seen them constructing stone buildings. And we have no evidence that there were any other being around at the time capable of such things. No magical designers. Nada.

    You have to show there were locals at the time. You have to find the tools for cutting and shaping.

    It's known that there were humans in that area at the time. We know what kind of tools they had. You are a merchant of doubt. But an ill-informed one.

    Nan Madol has been studied, Jerad. The legends persist because there isn't anything that contradicts them.

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhah

    Legends persist for lots of reasons. Like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. Doesn't make them true. Betsy Ross probably didn't have much to do with the first American flag either. And the Easter Bunny doesn't exist despite the fact that that fable persists as well.

    You can believe in flying dragons if you wish. Goes along with someone building a big boat and putting two of every animal in it.

     
  • At 2:16 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    It wasn't a quote-mine, Jerad. Read the entire article you ignorant punk. Dictionaries are the last place to look for SCIENTIFIC definitions. Idiot.

    We know what kind of tools they had.

    And nothing that says they were capable of this feat.

    But then again you do "science" via dictionaries.

     
  • At 2:11 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    It wasn't a quote-mine, Jerad. Read the entire article you ignorant punk. Dictionaries are the last place to look for SCIENTIFIC definitions. Idiot.

    So you linked to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy?

    Look, in archaeology, an artifact is a man-made object. The article is interesting but is not a guide for how the term is used in a specific field.

    And nothing that says they were capable of this feat.

    What's more likely: that some clever and determined humans figured out a way to move and shape and place the stones OR that two guys and some flying dragons did it?

    You don't really understand science. It's about finding explanations and theories that do not require agents or causes for which we have no evidence.

    But then again you do "science" via dictionaries.

    I was just showing that, even in common usage, artifact means man-made. And it certainly does in an archaeological sense. It's not doing science. AND you were the one who linked to the Stanford Encyclopedia of PHILOSOPHY.

     
  • At 8:07 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So you linked to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy?

    LoL! Philosophy of science is concerned with the definitions, foundations and methods of science.

    Look, in archaeology, an artifact is a man-made object.

    Nope. In archaeology An artifact may be defined as an object that has been intentionally made or produced for a certain purpose.

    And I know a vast majority of archaeologists agree with that.

    What's more likely: that some clever and determined humans figured out a way to move and shape and place the stones OR that two guys and some flying dragons did it?

    Neither one can be tested, moron.

    I was just showing that, even in common usage, artifact means man-made.

    It doesn't, though. A crow is not a man yet crows create tools, ie artifacts.

     

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